Thank you! Adults are able to discuss opinions without getting nasty.

Amen Beth O,
lets see how the laid off police and firefighters like their lives going forward.

James , 2 out of the 3 officers laid off from my dept. are making $12K-$15K more in the private sector...and that is their starting pay. Their starting pay is more than what they were making as 11 and 13 year senior officers. Their private sector starting pay is about $40K more than what they started at as officers...funny the BS spouted here by right wingers is repudiated by the facts on the street. Now that my old friends have a taste of thee free flowing private sector money they are never coming back. That's how good it is, do they miss being officers...yes.....but those big paychecks comfort them and both have commented on the LIES spouted by BUILDING A BITTER OHIO

Funny you bring that up James, 2 of the 3 guys laid off by my dept. are making about $15K more in their new private sector jobs.....their starting pay is more than they were making as public employees with 10 and 13 years seniority respectively....and about $40K over start

Well, if you told me how many millions of dollars unions would spend running their intimidation campaign I'd believe it. Kasich offered a plan to address a problem in our state and local government... what has the opposition done other than call people names and point fingers? I don't think SB5 was a perfect piece of legislation but at least it showed that some people aren't afraid to address a problem.

Same old reply...blah blah blah republican blah blah blah. I'm sick of it...its BOTH sides. The truth is that manufacturing jobs (which for many years) was the backbone of this economy and is leaving Ohio and at least Kasich had an idea of trying to fix the problem. All I've heard from supporters of Issue 2 is how it breaks the unions and oh by the way approve the additional tax levy. I have been in manufacturing for 30 yrs and am forced to take pay and hour cuts because of the economy yet it is not done on the public sector. I have many police and teacher friends to know what they make and how the raises come. And if the money is so great in the private sector why isn't more people leaving to get their fair share? Oh thats right, they just love the poor hours, long shifts and crappy pay? Please don't insult peoples intelligence. Just at least call it what it is. AND if all these people that are against Issue 2 are so smart than submit a proposal to HELP the communities in which you serve instead of just bashing the people that do have a plan whether its right or wrong.

Dave--Kasich offered nothing but the same old warmed over republican BS, rplete with scare tactics direted at the same people already overburdened for carrying his cronies on the tax rolls; the repubs ahve been usiing scare tactics all the way back to Goldwater (remember the atom bomb ad?) through Nixon ("law and order") to Reagan (the white polar bear ad) to the minority habitual offender turned killer ad and beyond...it just doesn't work anymore;

Chris, really? Cushy is the word you would use? I encourage you to do the math. I was curious so I did. 6% of our almost 12 million people in ohio are public workers. They make 50K on average per year. Do you really think that is cushy? Sure someone who has worked for 30 years will make more but you don't think they deserve to make 70-80K for that dedication? I mean you guys stay it's ok for someone to make 40 million on our backs because they worked hard for it, then why would you change your tune and say someone making 80K doesn't deserve it after putting in 30 years?

Do you know what SB5 would have saved each of the 12 million people in ohio? .95 cents per day. Less than a cup of coffee. Is that really going to save Ohio?

How would you feel if your employer came to you and said, I don't care what you think, I'm reducing your pay by 470 dollars per month so that the CEOs can have a larger bonus. Would you feel good about it? If you do, I challenge you to give 470 dollars a month to the state of ohio to fix it's budget woes.

Steve, I have a proposal for a solution. How about the 1% take the 10 Trillion dollars in cash that they pirated out of our economy by reducing pay for people like you (which is wrong) and they bite the bullet, invest the 10 trillion dollars, hire the 14 million people that lost their jobs since 2008, make a profit and then 14 million more people will be paying taxes again and getting us out of the whole.

That is the jist of the problem. The State of the Ohio lost the tax revenue of the people that lost their jobs and the property tax of the same people that lost their homes. Turning around and taking a small amount of money from the public workers will NEVER fill that gap. But if business would sacrifice and hire people those people will spend money, pay taxes, buy homes and we would start to get out of this mess.

Instead the 1% don't want to take a risk. They want to keep their money because you know, 10 trillion dollars is just not enough. They have to eat too right? I don't even think they need to pay more taxes, they just need to suck it up and start investing in America.

Chris, it's a small amount of money for taxpayers. It's a much larger amount for teachers. If teachers bite the bullet, each would take a 470 dollar a month pay cut. If taxpayers bite the bullet, it's .95 cents per day ($28 per month). That's why the huge uproar. That's just the beginning, it's a slippery slope. If all of this were the public workers and unions fault, I'd say, get rid of them, but this isn't their fault.

If the majority of people in Ohio make 25K a year (12 dollars per hour) then we need to do way more than look at our public workers. Something else is wrong. Taking it from public workers is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. The true problem is, why are our businesses paying near poverty line rates? Also, what is the average pay of college educated people (because teachers are required to have a degree). Do you really expect a teacher to spend 100K getting a masters degree to teach your children only to make 25K? Why even go to college? Wow, this opens up so many other issues that we probably can't go into. I'm a computer science major and make 110K per year in the private sector. In my mind, 40-50K is not cushy by any means. If they told me in college I'd make 25K in my field, I'd find another field.

Chris, here are the average salaries of people in ohio who have an undergrad degree. It's the same as the public sector. You can't compare a fry guy at Burger King and expect a teacher to make what he makes.

Major Percentage Min Max Average Salary
Accounting 24% $30,000 $75,000 $46,903
Finance 23% $30,000 $70,604 $51,139
Human Resources 3% $30,000 $50,000 $41,290
Information Systems 4% $30,000 $64,500 $49,267
International Business 2% $38,000 $70,000 $50,278
Logistics Management 13% $30,000 $70,000 $50,004
Marketing 18% $30,000 $75,000 $43,913
Operations Management 9% $40,000 $66,100 $50,206
Real Estate 1% $35,000 $60,000 $45,000
Other 3% $31,200 $84,000 $47,138

Chris, great points. I'm on board with merit based pay. I don't know about the whole showing up drunk for work and not getting fired. I've never heard stories like that and would be interested in reading about them. I suspect that's a small percentage of people that do that and I hate to punish everyone just because someone else is irresponsible. There must be a way to fix the unions so that those fringe examples don't occur. There also has to be a way to introduce merit based pay even with the unions. I've worked in the private sector my whole life and experienced bully tactics by managers and owners. It doesn't feel good to think if I don't bend over I'll lose my job and not be able to find another. Our government needs to start coming up with good solutions. Not the easy stuff like, getting rid of unions when it really won't do any good. They have been saying that for decades and what has changed? Not much, it just keeps getting worse. We need to demand from our politicians to work much harder and start being creative. The first think they should do is not make it a requirement to join the union. Then, if the union truly is obsolete and irrelevant, then they will fade away just like any other obsolete business. But it's not our right or the government's right to tell those people they can't have free speech and the right to assembly.

Tony, if the average public worker makes $50k per year then I am applying today. AND just for your knowledge, the private sectoir is paying on average 25-30% for health care that isn't even close to the coverage you get. Also, I do not get matched on my retirement or payed furlough days and I don't miss work. Answer this...isn't the whole purpose of starting a business to make the most money you can? I do not remember any union OR non-union personel giving any start up money or yaking ANY of the risks that it takes to get a company successful. To answer your question, no i would not be happy BUT do understand that even BEFORE Kasich was appointed to office, there has been a mass exodus of bussinesses here in Ohio. So again...come up with a plan instead of bs facts and figures because we all want to prosper here in Ohio. Maybe if my business is struggling I can put a tax levy on the ballot for YOU to bail me out!

Steve, Let's clear up one thing, I work in the private sector. The guys in the public sector that do what I do, make 1/2 of what I make. I would never apply to work for the government. Not in a million years. I guess our experiences are much different. So let's talk about mine since you brought up yours.
I pay 30% for my premiums (but again, I make double what they do in the public sector). I pay 0% towards my pension. My company pays it all, public sector pays 10%. I get unlimited sick time, 3 personal days, 4 weeks vacation, and comp time which last year, gave me 7 weeks of vacation time. I make 110K a year. Computer guys that work for the state, they make 40-50K a year.
Starting a business is to make money, but if I start a business and I don't have any employees and I don't have any customers will I succeed? So a humble business man knows where his bread is buttered. His employees and his customers are the reason for his wealthy. Why shouldn't he show a little appreciation when times get rough? You have made a choice to work for what you work for and you are doing nothing but displaying envy and covetousness (both sins). If I worked where you worked, I'd have been long gone a very long time ago. I use to work for a place like that so I worked nights and weekends going to school to get a degree and get out. Oh and generally speaking, we did bail the businesses out to the tune of 800 billion dollars. Did you forget about that?

Steve...I forgot, I also get 100% matching on the first 3.5% on my 401K and I "might" get social security when I retire. Public workers don't get social security. For me, I have it much better than any public worker. As a side note, if you personally were a good guy and ran a business that treated me with respect, I'd help to bail you out. I'd go out of my way to bring you business and to spend money at your establishment. It's the right thing to do. I pay more for my groceries because the place I shop pays their employees more and gives them health insurance. I could be going to wal-mart but they underpay and treat their employees like dirt. The teachers in my district, are awesome. The number of kids coming out of this high school with straight A's is unbelievable. When I call the sheriff (I'm not in the city) they are here in less than 5 minutes. Thank God I've never had to call the fire department so I don't know how they respond. No way am going to thank these guys with a sharp knife to the back.

Steve, regarding your statement about my benefits, I'm very grateful for my benefits and actually, they are a bit less than what I had at my last employer. I think it's very wrong that others don't get the same benefits that I do. I just choose to put the blame where it belongs, which isn't on the unions and the public workers. Who outsourced the jobs to China? And who let them without penalty? It really is the corporations that are destroying our country which is based in greed and the love of money. Did you know, that in the 1920's Ford did not outsource any employees and paid them something that was way above what everyone else made and they still made huge profits. All of these companies can afford to bring back the work, they would just have to make less money. something like 20 billion instead of 40 billion (I pulled those numbers out of the air.. I don't know what it actually is). But what they have left after the sacrifice is still worthy of kings and rulers. That's why I can't understand wanting to punish people that make like .0000004% of what the 1% do.I can't wrap my head around that at all. It would be like me expecting my 16 year old to pay the mortgage because he got a 25 cent raise at Taco Bell when I had my $3000 raise frozen this year. Why should he take the heat?

Tony, let me clear this up. First off, I am a registered Democrat, have a college degree and make $40k a year. If I came across as complaining it is not my intent. BUT I am sick and tired of people turning this into a republican or democratic issue. For years now neither the democrats or republicans have done anything for the people in this country. Do I agree with SB5...not all of it. But the facts are that (and everyone agrees with this) jobs ARE leaving this state (and country). A friend of mine is a councilman in a local city and he told me if hes elected for a second term he gets free health care for the rest of his life. You may agree with this but I do not. If he is in office I don't have a problem with that, but for the rest of his life is taking it to the extreme. Then to here that local city complain about not having enough funds and may have to raise taxes is just not right. Also I am very happy in my position where I work and I am more fortunate than most. And still I have NOT heard any other plan to help everyone (private and public).

Steve, we are pretty much on the same side. I'm not a registered anything. I think they all suck and should be fired. Talk about merit based pay! I really think we should reduce all of the politicians pay because at the root of it, they are at fault. I think SB5 was smoke and mirrors and that would have done pretty much nothing but make life a little harder on even more people (purposefully removing the label teacher, fireman, policeman) because that's what they are, people. Jobs are leaving the country and the state so let's blame the correct people. Because until we hold them accountable, nothing will change. The public "workers" can't champion change and get our jobs back. It's greed. It really is. I don't have any problem with a business person making millions. The took the risk, the should reap the rewards. My problem is, when is enough enough when you are messing with people's life? Tax breaks don't work. Some companies paid 0% in taxes and still laid people off and made record profits. How can anyone be ok with that? So I think we agree on a basic level. The rest is just a distraction. RE: your friend, no I don't agree with that at all. I guess since he's an elected official I don't really count him as the normal "public worker" like a teacher. He's paid by tax dollars but he's in a different class of employee because he gets to make the decisions. Free health care for life is disgusting. Funny thing is, he's not in a union. None of the politicians are :-).

So in terms of a solution on a general level, all the states and the federal government need to make it tougher for businesses to offshore with huge penalties if they do in the form of very large taxes to the point that if someone wants to run their business in a different country, then they can move there. Then we can limit imports into this country by those companies. Why make it easy for them if they are going to offshore all of their work? Next, if all states make it pretty much the same to run a business then companies won't move because it won't be any different any place else. When a business stays in America and invests into businesses and pays decent wages that someone can actually live off of, then they should be rewarded with tax breaks, but only after they have done it. Unions and Corporations and small businesses should not be allowed to donate to politician's campaigns. Only citizen's. Finally we all need to unite somehow so that if a company is unfair to hit's workers, they lose A LOT of revenue because we won't shop there.

This is all idealistic. It's hard to get 5 people to agree and take concerted action and I don't think our government will actually take the big steps that would actually help because they are cracking down on their friends then. The people that line their pockets.

That's the current model, and it doesn't work. If we believe it still does work, then we all should just go watch American Idol and wait for it to rebound, in which case, it's not anyone's fault. Just a bump in the road. I don't think it is, I think it's broken and doesn't work anymore. When I hear you say efficiency I hear, more money. No one can compete with us either way. The only reason China competes is because we borrow money from them, then give it back so they can buy our products that they make. I don't think I can ever be convinced that this is not a greed issue.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean do I go out and make the world a better place every morning? A better place... in terms of do I go out and collect pollution, save kids from abusers, and solve the drug problems? No. Do I get up every morning and work for my employer? Yes. Matter of fact I do, so if that is the case, you are out on the wrong limb. I'm also in IT. We just have two different views which is cool. You are more business friendly and I'm not. I've seen peoples lives destroyed by the people you say that treat them like family. I use to work for a .com back in the 90's and it was a small mom and pop shop with the husband and wife in the office. I ran all of the IT department, which consisted of me and 1 other person. Those people did not treat anyone like their were family . Instead, the week they closed on their 500 thousand dollar home the came to work and had a meeting telling everyone that their job was not in danger (they were mis managed and having problems). The day after that, I was called in the morning and asked to come in early to lock the people that were getting laid off out of the system. I dunno, I don't lie to my family like that for the sake of money. They didn't do it for efficiency and competition they did it because later it was found out that someone was taking money our of the company and spending it on personal stuff. Sounds like you have had good experiences. I have not.

Chris, btw, thanks for the exchange. You have a lot of valid ideas and you have gave me things to think about. It's nice to talk to someone without getting in a huge battle. I love the exchange of ideas and beliefs it's just hard to find people that will do it without resorting to name calling etc.

The opposition spent 30 million and the supporters spent 10 million. (all numbers rounded up).

Andrea, what does she make? What degrees does she have? Do you mean CPA in the private sector or in the public sector? How much more does she make?

Andrea sounds like to me, you need to look for another job. i really doubt if you are a CPA for a public company with 4 years exp. and you make less than a just hired school librarian. I think you might be stretching the truth a little.

Barb, I see your point. But I guess it's a matter of which side of the street you are standing when you look at the road. The 1% do pay large dollar amounts in taxes. The poor do not, which wouldn't help us if they did. I think the poor should pay, just a small amount. They need to have skin in the game too.
The two ways of looking at this is this. If I profit 2 million dollars running a business and I decide for whatever reason that the profit is not enough I can fire 2 people making 40K and the next year (assuming the same profits) I'd make 2,080,000. Now I'm happy right? 2 people aren't. Should those 2 people then complain that they pay too much in taxes so let's reduce the pay of their kids teacher without ever looking at the guy that fired him and is vacationing in europe?
The other side of the road says, I made 2 million dollars this year but I'm a true patriot and I appreciate what the american people have done for me by buying my products, working hard for me and making me wealthy. So, I hire 2 more people to help out the economy and pay them 40K each. The following year I make 1,920,000 and I made two people happy and I'm still living like a king!
Now, the state gets more sales tax and income tax from the two people I hired. Those two people start buying other products which cause other businesses to benefit. The economy starts to rebound and me, as part of the 1%, didn't pay a single penny more in taxes.

very eloquent

Bet those union dues are gonna skyrocket too :)

Tonto, what is your knowledge of union dues structure? I'm betting very little. I have read all about how this will increase or that will increase, more layoffs etc.... Are you reading out of the Kasich handbook or do you actually have figures or facts?

Sour grapes Dan. Nyaa nyaa. We won you lost

Adam, I read that you were. :-). I suppose you think that is the union's fault? They would be going bankrupt with or without them. I didn't really hear as many people complaining when we bailed out corporations to the tune of 878 billion dollars, but now it's a problem? I hope Americans can start to be consistent for once.

Not like this. From what I can see, all the conservatives are bowing down the corporate america and singing their praise. I hear the big stupid statement, "I never worked for a poor man". I always wondered if the slaves said that to themselves.

Again, not the Union's fault.

Shooting themselves in the foot ?

So since you all say sb5 is not union busting, tell me how what a union head makes justifies cutting the salary of a teacher?

So you are upset about someone making 250K but perfectly fine with a 5 million bonus on top of a 1 million per year salary of a bank exec who helped cause the main crash of our economy and got a bail out and an even larger bonus?

Really? Dude you really need to look at this with an open mind. Until the American people put the blame where it really should be nothing will change. The states are broke because of less tax revenue due to people laid off and homes lost which was due to the banking industry..... Not the unions and teachers. Is that a really hard concept to understand?

Adam, The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 commonly referred to as a bailout of the U.S. financial system, was enacted Oct. 3 2008. George Bush was president. Adam GET A CLUE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT